In Moderation
Providing health, nutrition and fitness advice in moderate amounts to help you live your best life.
Rob: Co-host of the podcast "In Moderation" and fitness enthusiast. Rob has a background in exercise science and is passionate about helping others achieve their health and fitness goals. He brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to the show, providing valuable insights on topics such as calories, metabolism, and weight loss.
Liam: Co-host of the podcast "In Moderation" and new father. Liam has a background in nutrition and is dedicated to promoting a balanced and sustainable approach to health and wellness. With his witty and sarcastic style, Liam adds a unique flavor to the show, making it both informative and entertaining.
In Moderation
Sierra Takes a Stand: Challenging Masculinity Myths & Fitness Industry Toxicity
Our latest episode challenges the myths surrounding masculinity and fitness culture, featuring the inspiring insights of Sierra, a fitness creator, and trainer. We dive into her journey through the often misogynistic world of fitness influencing, where aggression and toxic ideologies, perpetuated by figures like Andrew Tate, are unfortunately commonplace. Sierra's evolution from a fitness enthusiast to a vocal advocate against these harmful narratives offers a unique lens on the industry's darker side. Listen as we tackle the surprising support for aggressive behavior in the community, and how societal expectations often misguide men into seeking validation through toxic channels.
We take a closer look at the pervasive influence of red pill ideologies and the pressing need for positive role models who promote emotional authenticity and healthier perspectives on masculinity. With input from UK-based content creator Ex-Patriarch, we explore how patriarchal conditioning affects men's emotional expression, often equating aggression with strength. This episode unravels the complexities of male emotional dynamics within the fitness community, highlighting the importance of role models who embody empathy and emotional openness to inspire the next generation.
The conversation doesn't shy away from addressing challenging topics, including the role of public shaming in changing minds and the responsibilities of influencers in fostering inclusive gym environments. We discuss the importance of consciously choosing role models who reflect values beyond financial success or physical prowess, and the struggles of breaking free from content algorithms that reinforce narrow perspectives. With personal anecdotes, engaging discussions, and a touch of humor, this episode not only exposes the toxicity within fitness culture but also strives for a broader societal shift towards healthier attitudes for both men and women.
You can find Sierra
https://www.instagram.com/sierraaudet/?hl=en
https://www.tiktok.com/@sierraaudet?lang=en
You can find us on social media here:
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Rob Instagram
Liam Tiktok
Liam Instagram
Welcome back to In Moderation, where we just spent 13 minutes getting all of the political ranting out of the way so that you guys don't have to hear it, hopefully. I mean, you never know.
Speaker 2:There's political stuff going on, what I had no idea, I just have my dog cookie here.
Speaker 1:It's a little cookie for a dog. Yeah, are you eating dog cookies?
Speaker 2:No comment, you'll see in a video.
Speaker 1:Anyway, how you doing, rob? You've already admitted to eating grass, so that's nobody's gonna be surprised.
Speaker 2:I don't remember that, but that sounds like me. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:pretty good. I have a lead up into this guest for this episode, a little backstory to it for for once. So everybody, well, a lot of people, are familiar with the um, the jeff nippard, mike von wick, big mike fight that went on. But for those of you who don't know who those people are, they are both really big Canadian creators. Big Mike is your very bro science, aggressive steroid user and Jeff Nippard is your very into science and he's a nice guy. I recommend going to look his stuff if you haven't. He's the type of person we would have on this podcast if we ever develop a connection with him. But the two of them uh, mike made a video calling out science, science based lifters. It was basically a diss track against science-based lifters it was the fitness version of a diss track.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly and jeff nippert made a response to that.
Speaker 2:It was a very polite response, saying this is why I listen to science and why I'm a science-based it was so mild, like if you haven't seen it, he was just like yeah, this is the achievements I've got, this is what I've done, and this is why I listen to science like it was. There was not a single bad word in there.
Speaker 1:And after that happened, the two of them bumped into each other in a gym in Toronto where big Mike decided to throat punch Jeff as a response to Jeff's video, and it was. It was crazy Cause. You think you would think I would hope that most of our listeners are like because you think you would think I would hope that most of our listeners are like that is a dick move, but the sheer amount of people that actually were defending big mike was insane, and so users. And so a little bit after that, uh, I got introduced to our guest sierra through a mutual friend, ashley, and it was was kind of funny because Ashley was telling me about it. Apparently, she said that you're going to meet a fitness creator, but don't worry, he's a good one, she had to assure you.
Speaker 1:Apparently Sierra is on the other side of the gym from me and Liam. We don't get to see much of the misogyny Apparently Sierra here as well.
Speaker 3:I'll let you introduce yourself at this point yeah, so I've been a trainer now for over eight years. I did five in person and then I transitioned more to online training and so I started putting out fitness content and I got really involved with a group of people from Prescript, which they train trainers how to be trainers Basically. They have continuing education and they were based out of Pure Muscle, and Pure Muscle is where Jeff and Mike had their altercation. So that was kind of my introduction to like the fitness scene and the fitness influencers and basically then, as I was posting fitness content, I got in touch with HD muscle. I met a whole bunch of their like their photographers, like their influencers. We connected over social media and I actually became an affiliate with HD muscle, which Big Mike was an affiliate with HD muscle as well. So that was kind of the group of people I was around and like introduced to in the fitness industry.
Speaker 3:And then you start hearing like there is rumors and like the rumor mill starts going and that whole like environment and group of men that I happened to be introduced to in the fitness industry was so toxic. And then I was posting on TikTok and I was just getting inundated with a ton of like red pill men on my comments in my comment sections. So I was like, okay, this is fitness. Like it's a bunch of misogynists who hate women but want to see women in really tight clothing, and then men who comments about hating seeing women in tight clothing but then make fun of fat women. So I was like I just need to take a step back from fitness. So I took a step back from fitness and started talking more like misogyny route and kind of going down that route because I was attracting the red pill men anyways. So I'm like I might as well address this and can you describe that a little bit?
Speaker 2:the red pill, like you know what that is, just for people who don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so red pill is just like. There's a whole podcast subcategory of men who really hate women but really want to sleep with women. So the red pill sphere is a bunch of guys this is my description a bunch of men just sitting in a circle circle jerking each other about how much they hate women and how women won't sleep with them, but then their approach to dating women is discussing how much they fucking hate women and then being surprised that no women want to be with them is that sort of like the andrew tate sort of thing?
Speaker 2:is that like that?
Speaker 3:andrew tate was like the first one, and then there was, uh, sneeko is another one then there's uh, fresh and fit where they're like who came up with alpha camps.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have talked about that, yeah they're like number one advice to in cell men, so involuntarily celibate men and men who can't get women, their first advice is to go to the gym. So all of that's why there's been this like uptick in misogyny in the fitness sphere, because it's all just a bunch of men who can't get women thinking that if they go to the gym they're going to get women.
Speaker 2:And then when it's only men that they're hanging out with, they're upset that nobody wants to be with them right, and that's the perfect scenario, because then they're all, they're around, all the other men, and you can just you can form the biggest circle jerks you can have the biggest circ. You can have a whole gym, jerk. You can have a gym jerk.
Speaker 1:Don't choke too much sarah.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know there's already a bunch of pre-workout on the floor. All I'm saying I'm not going to keep going. That's fine, whatever. But yeah it makes like okay, no, but like it does make sense, like, especially when you're like younger like I'll speak as just like a male, you know, when you're in like your teenage years, you think like, oh, I get jacked.
Speaker 1:I get women right. That's like.
Speaker 2:That's what you are kind of taught in a way very steered into right, you kind of you kind of believe that because of just we'll just say outside influence, right, so, like, I guess it does kind of make sense. That's what if you were trying to lure other men into this and get them, um, to, you know, buy your like program or something. But like, first thing, bro, what you need to do, bro, bro, you need to hit the gym, you need to train those, those, those, those lats, and get those triceps going, whatever it is, um, but uh, I'm just kind of like, so, uh, I'm just kind of curious about, like, your transition. So, like, um, like, what kind of stuff were you getting in your comment section from, from these like red pull, red pill?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I made one video that kind of like started it off as I said, that BMI is not an accurate predictor of health.
Speaker 3:And I was like, because I'm 175 pounds, which is like on the heavier side, going into like almost like it's the heavyweight, like unhealthy category. And I was like but look at my body type. And I was like I go to the gym, I have muscle. And then the men were just like, so pissed off and they got more pissed off because I was like BMI was created. It's inherently like racist and misogynistic. Because they did not. In the sample study that they used to create BMI, it was only white men, so all of the numbers are based off of white men. So I'm like, if you have a woman who say 5'10", we're both 5'10", right, but one of us has extremely large chest. That fat is sitting at a different spot, so it's going to be a different indicator of health than somebody who has a small chest and holds all that weight around their stomach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we know the visceral fat, the fat you carry around your abdomen, that is less, or it's more, harmful to your health in general than if you carry it elsewhere.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so overall, that was just my point.
Speaker 3:And then it's it just kind of continued to spiral.
Speaker 3:So overall, that was just my point, and then it just kind of continued to spiral.
Speaker 3:And then it got to the point where they actually I ended up on the Scottish Sun and the US Sun they made an article about it because they were like trolls say that I'm unattractive, but look at my physique, right, and it just got to the point where I couldn't post anything without those same men like going into that comment section and like I would be doing like a dumbbell row with 75 pounds, I'm proud of it.
Speaker 3:And then they'd be like, oh, but look at your stomach, and I'm like I couldn't post anything without it, turning into how I was failing somehow, and I was like I don't understand, like what's the metric, like where, like what is enough in, like as a woman, to be like competent and good at the gym, and then like enough to talk about these things without being degraded for my body, and it just became this loop is it kind of feels like you know, when you're like a kid and you like a girl, so you like pull her hair because you're like eight years old and you don't know what the like pull her hair because you're like eight years old and you don't know what the fuck to do.
Speaker 2:It feels like they just never grew out of that. Is anybody else feel like that's what?
Speaker 1:they didn't develop their front.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so negging is so negging, I I got, I fell into like a whole thing for a little while, as I was like negging is fascinating, where it's like okay, so all right, here's a good example. Like if I go up to a girl and I'm like, wow, your eyes are so beautiful, are those color contacts? That would be a great example, because it's like you're giving them a compliment but you're saying like oh, but you're not real though, like I don't think you're actually real. So you give them kind of a compliment, but also a slight insult at the same time, yeah, like, yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2:I've always found that nagging just fascinating, also known as a backhanded compliment. It's, yeah, it's basically a backhanded compliment, is what it is, but you do it in terms of, like, trying to get women, and I it's what just? Is that how you, that's how you're gonna start a relationship is off, that that's just fast. I find it fascinating.
Speaker 3:I find it very fascinating that's kind of red pill's thing, though.
Speaker 3:Like nagging women is like their go-to, is like make fun of women and make them feel insecure, and then they're going to seek your validation right, yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, smart and a terrible, it's just like, kind of like it's ingrained itself in the culture when it comes to gym culture, which is why when I, when ashley was like, oh, there's gonna be like a, like a fitness influencer here, like a guy, and I was like, oh, okay, like what am I walking into? And then she's like, no, he's fine. And I was like, hmm, is he? Though? Yeah, what is what? What?
Speaker 2:I'm just wondering what what else do you think brings like that sort of men into the gym culture? Is it just like you mentioned, that's a great. The one, the example you gave earlier, that like hey, guys, you need to get to the gym to get jacked, to get women, is there any? Do you think there's like another aspect to it, the why the gym?
Speaker 3:another funnel yeah, like I feel like there's more funnels, exactly um, I think anger like a place to put anger and frustration, but I think what's hard is like as a society. We measure a man's success by his financial capabilities and also his ability to get women. So if you can't get money, another way to show that you're successful is to get women.
Speaker 1:And if you can't? Get those, either get a fancy car or a jacked up truck, yeah, but that's also like a marker of money, and if you can't get those either, get a fancy car or a jacked up truck, yeah, but that's also like a marker of money.
Speaker 2:Right, that's money, that's what I'm saying, Like if you have no money. You're like OK, I me know me, have no money, me need me, need success, me work out Me me get jacked, me get women like that. That's basically just the the path they take.
Speaker 3:But like that those things have been largely pushed on men from other men.
Speaker 1:Oh, of course.
Speaker 3:Men's version of like successful is those things, so that's why it fails to get people women.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you like you'd be surprised, like you know women, like there's going to be women that really care about like a guy's body Right, like there's there's billions be women that really care about like a guy's body right, like there's billions of people, yada, yada, yada. But like in general, they don't care nearly as much as other dudes do. Like any dude like you listen to, like fitness influencers, when they get like quote-unquote jacked.
Speaker 2:They get so much more attention from other they as they think it's yeah yeah, like the incels, then continue to fail right, because you're being told how to impress other men the only way to like really succeed, then, is to get like so successful, so successful off of other men liking you that you get the money and then you get the women like that. So you just pull a full on Andrew Tate and then you sell programs to oh, was it Hustleversity? I think he called it Hustleversity, which is like my favorite, like non-word ever Something like that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, hustle, I think it was.
Speaker 2:Hustle, hustle University I think they just combined it to like Hustleversity, and I was like that's um, I love this so much. Wasn't a lot of that how to traffic women too. Like I don't know, probably I don't know like all that went into it, but like there's a lot of sketchy shit, but like just that's what you game.
Speaker 2:And I was like no yeah, it's all just like let me make money off of other, you know, uh, off of saying I'm successful, instead of actually like really being successful, like that that route and I think part of it too, like the reason he was so successful is part of his course.
Speaker 3:Had you reposting his content?
Speaker 2:yes, on platforms.
Speaker 3:Yes, so it just spread faster right, yeah, yeah, yeah very smart, even like sneeko. He is another one and he talks about like he talks poorly about women all the time. And he was in an airport and a group of boys came up to him and they like swarmed and they're like oh my god, can we get your autograph? We love you and like fuck women. And he was like what? And they're like, yeah, fuck women. And they're like 12 to 15 years old and he's like what?
Speaker 3:No, we don't say that. Like, what are you doing? And it was like you could see the shock on his face. That like what he is saying is actually like sticking in people's heads, like I think that they it's a griff, right, majority of these men because they get access to women, they're sleeping with women and what they're selling is a griff. And this is like getting into the younger guys heads, the like young boys heads, and then it's ruining their thought process and like how they view women and he doesn't like a lot of these people don't understand how much this is permeating into like relationships with young boys and young girl. And then there's young girls who are going to school and getting told your body, my choice by these teenage boys, yeah right and like and we sit back and like.
Speaker 3:Part of me kind of getting into talking about those things and misogyny was also like I have a son and I was like the teachers were complaining about how much they were hearing red pill ideology in their classroom and they're like how do we address this? And it's like, well, there has to be an antithesis to this conversation, because if we're only allowing, like those types of men to create content around what it means to be a man, that's the only messaging they're getting from other men and so they think that's how they have to go out into society and then it affects young boys as well as young girls and then we see it just the cycle repeating itself.
Speaker 1:That's how they have to go out into society, and then it affects young boys as well as young girls, and then we see it, just the cycle repeating itself. That like really make me proud are when I have young men that message me, thanking me for being a role model. That actually is saying that they can do things like show, show real emotion and do their hair what, however, they want, or all these things yeah, because the extreme views are always right.
Speaker 2:We always talk about it in terms of like nutrition, right, like you know someone yelling at you with their shirt off, talking about like lectins and beans, whatever the fuck it is. You know some nonsense, but it absolutely works in this area as well. Right, because, like, these messages are just like wild and crazy and they're going to get a lot of attention and a lot of views. So, like you can't stop that. Like that's we're in 21st century, right, social media is everywhere. You, there's no way we're like, well, it's just banned. No, there's, there's nothing you do there. So how do you combat? It is the question. And so is that you think that's the best, best way to fight is just have a counter, like a good counter message. What is that message? What do you think? Here, let me ask counter like a good counter message.
Speaker 1:What is that message? What do you think here? Let me ask you, kind of leave it to the floor. Is yours?
Speaker 3:I think so. Like there's a, there's a content creator I really like that's based out the uk. His name is ex-patriarch and he talks about like patriarchal conditioning and how we're conditioning men to not have conversations. Like there's a lot of men who don't know how to open up to other men.
Speaker 3:There's a lot lot of men who don't like their emotional lives are not rich, they're limited to themselves and they're like an island existing with all these other islands of men existing. They don't. If something happens in their life, they don't have men that they can reach out to. And I think that the fitness community can be a really good environment for fostering community with other men If they're able to get over the hurdle of the things they've been told since they were kids about like not crying, not showing emotion and just internalizing everything. But yeah, this came to a head with mike and jeff, because jeff is somebody who's like very communicative, he shares information, he shares ideas. And then you have big mike, who's like that stereotypical misogynist like fuck bitches, get money. He was drake's bodyguard.
Speaker 2:He like just he was.
Speaker 3:He just embodies that um, and you saw the like clashing of the two. Like jeff is like words mike is. I'm gonna throat punch you unprovoked in the gym because my emotions are so big I can't handle them. But I'm a big, manly man and so I think that's where we see those things like clashing in the gym. It's like the more open, honest, communicate, a communicative man versus the stoic. I can't say that. You hurt my feelings so I'm just going to throat punch you.
Speaker 2:Right, Because that's their only avenue at that point. Right Because you've been taught the emotions okay to show are anger.
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe just anger.
Speaker 2:Maybe just sleep it in.
Speaker 3:It's anger and it's like anytime they have an emotion outside of anger, it always funnels into anger because they don't know what to say. It's like when you have a toddler and they're like they're throwing things or hitting things because they're just frustrated and they can't use their words to explain themselves. He can't do that, so instead he throat punches somebody and then all of the other men that feel the same way, that can't use their words are like yeah, big, that's what's just.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just about to say that yeah yeah, it was crazy, the some people were saying that, um, you know, if you're gonna talk big, you need to back your words up, and it's like the words were we're backing up the words.
Speaker 3:Like you can use your words, yeah, to back things up well imagine thinking you're like less emotional because you throat punch someone over a tiktok right like you're less emotional because you got such like you, such big emotions. You had to throat punch another person because of a tiktok, a little video. And this is where the bring back bullying. Bring back like you can't handle a tiktok we were before this podcast.
Speaker 2:Before we started the podcast, we were talking about bully the bullies, like that. So you kind of have to just be like listen, bro, like you, you, you assaulted someone because they and again I just want to make it like jeff was so just, uh, it's a very caught. Like he didn't say a single bad word about mike in that video at all, just just state of the facts. Here's what I've done, here's why I believe in this and that's it. And like I think anyone watched, I was like, oh, like I, I watched that video. The comments were like this is a very like, kind response, like this is a very well thought out. You know, you know a good response. And he just got so mad he had to assault him. It's, it's, it's wild. Yeah, it's, it's absolutely and the cameraman too.
Speaker 2:Let's not forget that and he had him twice too. Like he hit him, got back up, hit him again, like I was like that's, that is and yeah, you're right like that's when people backed him up because they saw that and they want they're just there's just this violent.
Speaker 3:They want to circle jerk anger. They want to do. They just want to sit there and be like, yeah, don't say anything to me and you're like, learn how to control yourself, because four-year-olds learn that.
Speaker 2:No, but for them, you know, it's just that it's violence. That is the way anger and violence and yeah, I just don't know how. I think it's nice like seeing, like you know. I think I think one like positive thing is sometimes you'll you'll see like celebrities, um, and you know, like a celebrity male, so like your typical, like you know the rock or something like that will open up a little bit more with his daughter and you know sing, and you know, do these certain things I'm like, oh, that's nice, at least that's like something else, like showing that you have emotions, but like I don't know exactly how to, like you know, fight this on a broader scale.
Speaker 2:It's, it's such a, it's such a tough one.
Speaker 3:It's a tough one to fight I think making fun of them like to some degree, like publicly shaming people who say and do stupid things, needs to come back to some degree, because they do it to us. You say something they don't like and they'll just again circle, jerk, hate each other like, hate everything and it's like so we have to sit here, we have to mince words, we have to be careful about what we say, because they might have a tantrum like a four year old. Or we can just look at them and be like you behave like a four year old, like from, like a four-year-old. Or we can just look at them and be like you behave like a four-year-old, like are you gonna hit me because you're four years old? Like they're children and like. Shame works great for those people because it's the only way that they know how to communicate. That's how they communicate with us.
Speaker 1:they shame, they like, make fun of and they hit that is a fair point, that you have to communicate with somebody in a way that they know how to communicate you can, you okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, you communicate with them that way, though, and then how do you make them learn the other ways? Do you just have good, a bunch of good role models, and hopefully they can see those, like you know, we were talking about before it depends on the age bracket you're discussing. Okay.
Speaker 3:I think that that comes down to like do we get to a point where in the gym we shame people who act like Big Mike and we ostracize them and make them not part of the gym community and they get put on their little island so that the people coming up don't think that that's how you behave in the gym?
Speaker 2:Right. So do we just say, like Big Mike lost, there's nothing we can do about that, so we're just going to publicly shame him and humiliate him.
Speaker 3:So hopefully more people don't become this, yeah, and call him a loser, like you know, like he's not part of the community. That's what they do. Like, when you think of a lot of the ways that society is like things are going right now Um, that's how they've kind of won in other areas is just being like you're not one of us.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:There's a woman who's part of the red pills industry sphere Pearl is her name, pearl Davis and I made a video and I she's a redhead and I said that I would never sit down and have a debate with Pearl because I think that she's stupid. And people are like why would you say that and what like? Why would you say that and what like? Why would you be so mean? And I was like because why am I going to sit down and have a civil conversation with someone that thinks that women deserve less rights, that we're not as smart? We should be in the kitchen having babies.
Speaker 3:Why am I going to sit and have a logical conversation? I'm going to tell her to get in the fucking kitchen and make me a sandwich, because that's how she wants all of us to be treated. So I'm just going to return the sentiment and she's not going to get a conversation, she's going to get a. Does the carpet match the drapes? Because that's how she views all of us to be talked to. So I don't think that having these like the problem is, is we have these logical, theoretical conversations and we bring facts and all these things and, like you said, they don't see it.
Speaker 2:So bring the type of conversation they understand shame, harass, make fun of and ostracize oh yeah, let's just say ostracize them so much so that if you go into that group you know you're, you're just gonna, you're gonna get it so hard it's not worth it well, it's the same like girls dating. Now, if somebody listens to andrew tate, they know run that's a big red flag, that's like the biggest red flag. Yeah, oh shit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there was a guy who came on tiktok and he was talking about how now he's going to have to hide who he voted for because he knows that women aren't going to want to date him. And you're like that's the way, like they're gonna try and hide, but they always have tells but right, that's the way it should be. They should be ashamed. That's my opinion.
Speaker 2:It's interesting they try and shame women out of the gym I'm just saying over here like yeah, I'm just, I'm kind of just torn with this idea of just like you know how to to reach you know the. I think the best bet, yes, is to reach the younger generation and just try and teach them that you know.
Speaker 2:It is okay to show other emotions, like I give up on the people that have already sunk into it and try to yeah, I think the younger and move them aside yeah, I think, like the older generation that's already in it, it's gonna be tough like you can try, but like boy, it's, it's a, it's a lot, it's gonna be a lot harder, like okay. So I remember when I was younger, uh, I was like I must, I'd like maybe not even 20 years old. Uh, a friend of mine at work he died from like a staph infection. He was only like in his 30s, he was very young, it was very sad, and I went to his funeral and like they had and I was doing okay up until that point, and then they had all the pictures and everyone was there and talking about him and I just started like bawling, crying like like not like a fun cry, like a full on cry right, and like his parents were like saying hi to people and handshake him, handshaking and saying you know, all that stuff. And I remember going up to him and I shook his hand and he looked straight at me and he said stop crying, be a man. Or he said man up. I think is what he said. He said man up.
Speaker 2:And I was like and I left there thinking like his son just died, like at like 30. And he was, he couldn't cry at it. He couldn't show any emotions and he was telling other people who were crying at his son's funeral to not cry. And I thought about that, since I'm like that's, you know, really, if it's not okay to to cry at your own son's funeral, then I guess it's never okay and like that's. That's a tough like life to live where you can't show emotions at all. So then yeah, like you were saying, it just kind of goes into anger, I guess, cause where else is it gotta go? So like that's, the older, like the older generation, they're just kind of that's the way that it's they've been brought up.
Speaker 1:So I think maybe just focusing on like the younger generation, maybe that's why TikTok can be the ostracize the people because then push them out on their island and take the younger generation be like look, you don't want to go over on that island, come over here yeah, I, I think yeah, just like tiktok is generally younger crowd, right, try and reach them and teach them.
Speaker 2:You know that you don't have to be a hateful dick who circle jerks like you don't have to do that. That's not, that's you can. You can show emotions and it's fine and like probably better, because then you don't just have all that pent-up emotion and also maybe don't take tons of exogenous hormones because, like steroids, might also make that a little bit worse.
Speaker 2:That's all, listen. All I'm saying is, if you're taking like a thousand milligrams of tests, you know, like those emotions, those anger emotions, might get you a little bit, a little bit easier, just a little bit.
Speaker 3:Or just show them what happens to men that end up like Big Mike.
Speaker 2:Just make an example. As you say make, make an example of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what advice would you have for the, the younger generation of men? We've got a lot of female listeners up for our podcast and they're all like nodding along with you but for for the, especially the younger men who are growing up and starting to get into this, this, this divide yeah what would your advice be to them?
Speaker 3:Find people who make you feel good. I've had men in my comments talking about how you know they don't talk about their issues because the men around them are their friends. Like, for example, they wouldn't talk about their relationship issues with their friends because their friends might try and steal their girlfriend, and I was like that doesn't sound like a friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's not a friend.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think for younger men it becomes important to understand when people around you are safe and what type of advice you're getting from the content you're consuming and considering the life of the men that you're consuming. Like the content you're consuming, does their life look rich and fulfilling outside of the gym, or what they have financially? Because there's so many men nowadays that are dying alone in care homes, without their kids around them, without their wives around them, because they've created that island themselves and they've been terrible to everyone around them and near the end of their life they're alone. So the reality comes down to is like does your role model or the men you're looking up to have the type of life in, like outside of financial success, that you would want to emulate in your own? Do they have partnerships that make you want like that you would want to have with a woman? Do they talk positively about their friends and family and the women that they're around?
Speaker 3:Because I find a lot of the times when you look at the messaging that a lot of these Red Pill podcast people have, or when they're talking about women, they're dehumanizing, they're objectifying, dehumanizing, they're objectifying. So how those men talk about women is a good indication of their ability to have empathy. There's so many men nowadays that don't have access to empathy because they can't feel anything but anger, so they can't empathize with other people. So empathy is just like a muscle you have to train it, you have to work on it, and If you're not getting that through friendships, if your friends can't, if you can't have those conversations with your friends, you're never going to be able to develop your EQ, which is your emotional intelligence and your ability to relate to other people. That would be my advice.
Speaker 1:You know what's interesting is? I was picturing Liver King while you were talking.
Speaker 2:Who doesn't, who doesn't Like. That's what I picture all the time. That's all I picture, isn't everybody just picturing a liver king right now. Yeah, brian johnson is just on everyone's minds constantly.
Speaker 1:But a lot of young men watch his stuff and they look at him and they're like, oh, look at this guy. He's big, he's swole, he's powerful, he's rich, everything. All the andrew tate stuff, all the red pill stuff. But if you actually watch the videos and look at the things going on around him, he doesn't really interact with other people. If you watch his wife in the videos, his wife almost never talks. I don't think I've ever seen her talk. There might be a couple of videos and it's almost like she's on a leash. Instead of having a partner that's there and celebrating this and doing the stuff with you, she's in the background. That's not what I would do.
Speaker 2:Sometimes she's right next to him and she says things like women are built to be women and men are built to be men. Primal. Oh yeah, let's go. You know that sort of thing, so basically a script. Oh, it's a full on script and it worked very well until it didn't.
Speaker 1:But like whatever, he made a lot of money before it didn't work poorly, but, like the point is, that's not how I would want to portray my relationship in a video, like if if I'm with somebody who wants to be in my videos, I don't want them just standing back there or saying some simple stuff.
Speaker 3:I want them to actually be part of it and enjoy something and have fun with me. Yeah, Well, I consider like mentors. Like I was on a date with a guy and he has a mentor. He wants to be like high up business. He's doing well success there, he's successful financially right now, but he really wants a family and children. And his advisor told him to wait until he's a lot older and do all these things. And I was like, okay, does your advisor have the life you would want in his family? And he goes well, what do you mean? Like well, you're taking advice from a guy. Would you want his life? If you don't want his life, why are you taking advice from him?
Speaker 3:You want a family, you want kids, you want to be successful in business, but you can't have even as a man. You can't have even as a man. You can't have both. You can't have a super strong financial life and be a ceo who's traveling around the world internationally and never seeing his kid. So you have to learn what to prioritize. And it's the same with women. Like maybe back in the day, 1950s, where you were a home, like a wife at home couldn't have a job. You, you know you would be 100, all about the children and the husband, but in these, this time you're working, you can't do those things. So how do you learn to prioritize what's important to you and consume content from people who have a life you want? Like, as a woman, I'm not going to go and watch advice from men who say you should wake up at 5am and you should go for a marathon run and you should do all these things when I have children, Like his advice is completely irrelevant to the life I have or want.
Speaker 3:Even though it's good, like life advice, like yeah, I could be successful if I'm doing these things it's not applicable. So I think when people look at Andrew Tate Andrew Tate doesn't even live in the U S like consider the stores.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I think. The tough part, though, I think, for what I'm seeing with this is like I, you're totally right Like well, look at the content you're consuming. You know what are they saying, that sort of thing. However, you know, the algorithms have gotten very good at as soon as you, you know, like something sending you completely down that rabbit hole and you just keep going consuming the same content. So, like reaching those people, like a lot of people that listen to this podcast, but yeah, yeah, totally, I'm with you but like reaching people who are on that side and all the content they see is the Andrew Tate stuff breaking through their algorithm.
Speaker 3:That becomes literacy. Like, a large portion of those people who are consuming certain types of content are not literate, so they have like a sixth grade reading level or lower. They don't know how to take information and understand. And that's why I said we have to bring back old tactics, because these conversations we're having they can't comprehend it and I don't mean that like in a judgy way. In a mean way they're gutting education systems and leaving these people intentionally illiterate so that they can't question the source or understand what a source is. So the only thing we can, we can dumb it down further and say like consider the lifestyle that these people have and do you want, do you want, their life?
Speaker 2:but in their instance though they're looking at andrew tate and they're like, yes, that's what I want, so I will listen to him and that makes sense. I mean it's flawed, tragically, but you know for them they're like, yeah, no, andrew Tate, cars, money, women, yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1:We were briefly talking about this line of thought before we started recording in the politics rant Not to go down the politics, but we were saying that one of the main reasons Trump won was because it was simple and dumbed down.
Speaker 2:You want simple, if you want to get a message across people. Short form, like your TikToks and whatnot make something and keep repeating it over and over, and so reaching that type of person is something. I'm still just sitting here thinking, oh man, how do you reach that person? Man, that's tough. I guess what you said?
Speaker 3:yeah, just you know make fun of them and also like seeds, like planting seeds of like asking questions, asking them questions. You can ask them leading questions. Sometimes I get them in my comments and I'm like, okay, think this further through, like think this down the road, but then it becomes like teaching and because anytime you meet someone head-on just like you're stupid, you're wrong, it's.
Speaker 2:You're rarely gonna get like any sort of like good interaction from like you're not gonna change their mind telling them they're stupid and wrong for the most part, right, it just makes people feel I think it.
Speaker 3:You have a scale of like being able to judge if you're having a conversation with what someone, the level of like bigot they are like. You're not going to convince someone who's extremely racist to flip their views. Like that's not a conversation I need to have with you. We're not going to sit down and negotiate or have a conversation about race because you're all the way over here. But somebody who's discussing maybe like intersectionality and like not understanding how race um affects people differently, that's a conversation we can have where they're not all the way over here, like this is a pipeline and you can intersect people in the pipeline, but once they're like all the way over here, it's a lot harder too, because then it's something that, uh, we kind of talked about with adam right, where he was saying that you can't take people from negative 100 to 100.
Speaker 2:You have to get to zero first and but for the people at a negative 100, I'm not sure you can even bring them there. So, like for me, like not talking, like either politics or this or whatever else, like when I talk to people who ask a question about like whatever food, exercise, it doesn't matter, like some a lot of times I can just be like, okay, you, you've completely fell down this. Like other side, there's just nothing I can do. You think everything is toxic poison and you're gonna just eat sticks of raw butter, of butter, all day. That's, that's dope. But, like you know, then I see comments from other people. They're like I'm not really sure about this, like is this? Like I don't know what about this, and that I'm like, ok, ok, yeah, I can, I can, I can converse with you a little bit, I can try. And I like the leading questions that you said, like what do you so think about this? Um, like, oh man, there was a great one. So so you know, uh, simon hill, like simon hill's, uh, he does another podcast, he's great. Uh does a lot of things on nutrition.
Speaker 2:He'd had a debate with uh, another guy, the guy you've covered videos of his before. He's the like the, the guy gynecologist or whatever like who does like stuff on nutrition. What is he? He's like the other guy, like white hair, he does. He's a doctor of something I don't even know exactly what it is, but it has nothing to do with nutrition. But he's fully gone into that and Simon Hill asked him what's the highest level of scientific evidence that you have? What is the top of this is concrete evidence. He's like what my grandmother said or what my grandmother ate, was his answer, and I was just like oh, so you cannot convert. There's no point in talking with someone that's just like oh, the best evidence I have is my ancestors or what my grandmother ate. Give up, you're done, there's no point. So I think, bringing it back to this, when you see those people who are fully, fully red pilled, you kind of just have to say, ok, we cut our losses.
Speaker 1:Talking about this on the Twitch live stream last night. It's the genetic fallacy where something is correct simply because a previous ancestor, your parents, grandparents, somebody told you it is.
Speaker 2:And so, like you had, I think with that you just kind of have to give up. And, like you know, I think with that you just kind of have to give up. And, like you know, tiktok's a good place. We got younger people and we just try and be as good of a role model as we can and try and show them that you don't have to be miserable and only show your emotions through anger.
Speaker 3:And I kind of like the volume, understanding like there's like a social hierarchy in in our system, like just inherently Canada, the US. It's like men, women, race comes in their socioeconomic status, you know, changes where you are in this hierarchy. And I think that the more that white men are willing to have this conversation and also call people out in moments where they see these things happening, is how we start to shift that. Because if the people at the top of the hierarchy are not willing to acknowledge that there's a hierarchy or that they benefit in some capacity and all those things, those just get ignored. That's how it continues to perpetuate, because the people who have privilege don't want to acknowledge they have privilege.
Speaker 3:But if the people who have privilege like I've had men come in my comment sections before and be like so you want men to do all the work And'm like I think, the conversation we're having you also have to understand that, like I'm not viewed as a human being by some people, like for being a woman, so me having the conversation with other men and saying, hey, you should view women as equals. Women are people, they don't. They view me as like a malfunctioning toaster. I'm saying the wrong things, I'm doing the wrong things, so it requires other men that they see as people to have these conversations. It's, it's, uh, white men holding mike van wick accountable, not just you know. Women saying men hitting each other I just look like a hysterical woman. Other white men saying why the fuck are you putting hands on a man over a tiktok?
Speaker 2:you, you child, you toddler, hold more weight and that's why, like you saw so many white men coming to mike's defense because they're trying to justify, like there was, I think, as a whole, like most, most of the community, most of the gym community was behind jeff nippard because you know, yeah, you assault someone in general most, at least nowadays, like I think, most people go okay, attacking someone physically is wrong over words, but you'll always have like the, you have the very extremes.
Speaker 1:And unfortunately you didn't get in on the collab video, liam.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was very busy around that time. It was Dr Kiltz Kiltz. He's a fertility doctor.
Speaker 1:Oh, kiltz, robert Kiltz, yes, yeah, yeah, kilts, kilts he was, he's a fertility doctor.
Speaker 2:Oh, kilts, robert tilts, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy, oh god, yeah, really, he did a whole debate, like three hours. He spent with him. I'm like fucking props to you, bro. I would not make it, I'd faint, there's no way. Um, but uh, yeah, I think she like I. I totally agree with you. You need people, you know you need people, you know you need other people you know around you to be like, yeah, no, that's an absolute dick move. You need to make fun of them a little bit and you know, we hope for the best of the future and like it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's tough to like at the very least, you need to find some way to make second guess what they're thinking. Sometimes that's making fun of them and them being like oh, I'm being made fun of To see the repercussions for their actions.
Speaker 2:Is that the best way just to show them that? It's a combination of showing them repercussions for their actions, but also being like you're not going to get anything out of. You're not going to get what you think you're going to get out of this.
Speaker 1:You're not going to get what you think you're going to get.
Speaker 2:You're not going to get laid. You're not going to get jacked and then laid immediately after. It's like you go to the gym and you walk out and you get 20 numbers just handed to you. That's not how it works yeah, unless they're guys.
Speaker 3:Numbers that are like hitting you up for training or something, training air quotes but I mean he did get kicked out of that gym, which made me very happy because I feel like that's a step in the right direction yeah, if you assault someone, you should at least have your gym membership taken away as like a fucking bare minimum it's hard, though, because HD like pure muscle.
Speaker 3:The gym like benefits a lot from Big Mike being there, but I think they benefit more from like Jeff and the whole, because, like even Quinton the bodybuilder, he came out and, like I think mike's, rubbed people the wrong way in that gym for so long and nobody could say anything and he finally did something right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure you see a lot of behind the scenes like shit, like you know that that's going yeah, that gym has a reputation, yeah it's? Yeah, it's interesting because we don't see that side of anything else, from that side of, uh, the other side that you want to mention or anything like that, give you the floor no, I think like if, if you're a woman, just don't date any of the men that work out at pure muscle, like, just stay away from them.
Speaker 3:He's awesome. Yeah, they all have a reputation. That's I. So I never followed Jeff on social media because, um, anytime I see someone working out at that gym, I just kind of assume that I should run the other way right, yeah, but yeah no, I think that's about it.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a great gym, though, if you ever get to go the equipment, though top tier it's great, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's fantastic If you can get past the misogyny and all of that. Absolutely Fantastic.
Speaker 1:Just wear a mask so that the women don't know who you are. You can come out of there safely.
Speaker 2:You won't get put on any blacklists. Yeah, I do like a big mike vet mask. I I do like I think, in general, like you're seeing some of the stuff from like the joey swoles and whatnot, where they're trying to get this message that, like, the gym is for everyone and you shouldn't. You know you don't be. You know, is it perfect? Maybe not, but, like you know, it's not a place for bullies, anybody, any age, any gender, any whatever. Like I think, just trying to get that message out more, because I constantly see people in comment sections of like those videos be, like, I stopped going to the gym because of this, because of you know these, these things I've seen but have you spent any time in joey's comment sections?
Speaker 2:it's also like a congregation of red pill and cell men there's, there's gonna be that, like there's gonna be that in any gym, anything that has to do with the gym, I think there's going to be. There's got to be some of that, like anything that gets big enough, I guess I should say there's going to be some of that, and I mean I just I, I do like that. I was just saying I do like the message of trying to, you know, tell people that you know there's there's no place for bullies. The gym is for for everyone. I at least, like that.
Speaker 3:I think I would have more respect for Joey Swole as a content creator if he was able to address the fact that his comments are so much worse than what he is making videos about. Like I understand there's issues around people filming in a gym setting and being disrespectful, but his comment sections are some of the most toxic comment sections you can come across and most women like don't want to identify with joey swole's community because he never addresses anything that's said in his comment. Like if you're going to be like that white knight who's addressing bad behavior, you should also either monitor your comment sections or address some of the worst comments that are in those sections because, as a woman, could address some of the of those well, like as a woman who works out a personal trainer, when I look at those comments I would not want to be part of the gym community.
Speaker 3:Based off of what the men in those comments say about women, like they're just really horrible towards women. Especially if it's a video about a woman, it gets really really toxic and downright like dangerous some of the stuff that they say honestly.
Speaker 1:Not the first time I've heard that I don't really watch joey's stuff just because I don't really need to.
Speaker 3:I know what it's gonna yeah, yeah it becomes like a dog pile on the woman. So say she posts like um, I want to say like does the, does the sentence rep like uh, adequately address the crime? Yeah, setting your camera up in a gym and recording somebody and posting on the internet probably not like the best thing you can do and it can be toxic as well, but the response from angry incel men towards those women have had them like doxed, had their accounts taken down like they're attacking the women's bodies they're attacking and and like that's the thing is, like joey's trying to do this positive thing but failing to acknowledge how toxic it can be when he addresses something that's like this big becomes this big, you know, and the response that women get from those videos is not equal to the bad thing they're doing.
Speaker 1:Especially doxing someone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like people have had to take down their entire social media presence if Joey puts up a video that they've posted on social media.
Speaker 2:I have definitely seen that. Where they take it, where they take it down, I've seen. But, like I have seen, joey go after both men and women, like a lot of I've seen. I've watched a lot of his videos and he does go after both or he does talk about both, but I know, like it, the reaction to it, you it's. So what is the alternative? Just to not talk about it though, because that's you know, I don't.
Speaker 3:I think we need to be like selective on the severity of the video that the woman, like the person is making. One like I get, like that's your stick on social media. But then also addressing the way that men are speaking about women or to women in his comment sections is another way that he can address incel red pill culture and not allow it to just continue and be a norm, like he could also say this is negative, this is toxic, this is abusive.
Speaker 2:I don't accept this type of conversation right, so what this person did was wrong. But also this reaction is over the line and we need to address it.
Speaker 1:Like I can see, I want to give a shout out to Dan McClellan. Here he does religious content, not fitness, oh yeah, but every single one of his videos he opens with do not go after this creator. He makes sure that people aren't harassing and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I will say even with like, like. I think that's a good example, though, because I've seen this, where, like he, his, his caption is always the same do not harass this creator, do not, go to their comments, do not, and people still do it like people still do it, even after doing that so like people are going to be people like no matter what. So it's like you know, how do you, how do you stop that?
Speaker 3:you stop. Stop that by making the threat of what Joey does to people who do video recordings. Just as great for comments like that.
Speaker 1:That's a good. That is a good response. If somebody's being a dick in comments, you should be calling out the comment.
Speaker 2:I could see. I could see more like content based around like. This comment says this, and this is far over the line. This is, this is not over the line.
Speaker 3:This is, this is not. We don't tolerate in this and that's also again how you address misogyny in the gym community to the younger audience I can see that that like, yeah, somebody setting up a camera shouldn't be like, that shouldn't be happening, we shouldn't be, you know, shaming people with a camera, that's but we also shouldn't send them death threats because of it.
Speaker 2:You know, know, like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you should also have consequences for saying things, the same way that people who post a video should have consequences for doing that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Agreed on that.
Speaker 2:See that, definitely see that. Yeah, but moral of the story though, like gym community, I still I like I think it still is quite positive and I know, speaking as like a white man, you know I get less blowback from things, but still some of the like the nicest people I've I've ever met have been like it's definitely the most polarized community.
Speaker 1:You have extremely nice people, yeah, and you have assholes.
Speaker 2:You definitely have the assholes, for sure, but, like I tell you, some of the nicest people, man, like I mean in the gym, they're just like super, he's just like, they're just so nice, you know, and I, I want more, I want to see more people like that I do too, but I think, I think, we all do yeah, it's kind of why I took a step back, because again it becomes this like chicken egg conversation and also just the experience from like with men is so different.
Speaker 3:Like men can go into a gym and a stringer and their underwear and take photos and they're not getting called a slut for it. So yeah it's.
Speaker 1:The experience is going to be different depending on right, of course yeah, because it's it's still a still a bit of a um a boys club, yeah, and that's why a lot of gyms end up well, not a lot, but there's a fair amount of gyms that end up making a women's only section yeah, I don't know if that does anything, is that doesn't seem like it doesn't seem like it solves the problem at all no, I don't think it's a solution.
Speaker 3:I think it's a band-aid I think it's like even have you guys ever seen a women's only section?
Speaker 1:I have not I have.
Speaker 3:I live in the middle of nowhere yeah I would say, out of all of the women's fitness facilities I've been to or seen, there has been two with barbells. The weights don't go past 40 or 50 pounds, like even there's a.
Speaker 2:They're usually the colorful ones, and that's it.
Speaker 3:Like and like mostly cardio machines and if you're gonna go use a weight machine, it doesn't have the weight, it has the numbers so it was a women's section designed by a man yes okay, and like it just.
Speaker 2:It's just like. But it's just like, it's so obvious and right there, like the women are going, I just don't feel like it really even is a band-aid. It just like, but it's just like it's so obvious and right there, like the women are going, I just don't feel like it really even is a bandaid on it. It just I don't know if it makes it worse, but like it doesn't make it any better.
Speaker 3:I think there's like the, the one, the group of women that I see love it the most is definitely like Muslim women, women who dress um, those people, uh, because a lot in their culture like I don't even think that they're really supposed to work out around men, so it gives them like a space.
Speaker 3:That's, but that's, yeah, that's fair we like as a woman, I went to a gym the other day and I was like, oh, maybe I'll just sign up at a women's only gym for the entire gym like the size of a normal good life. They have one barbell. I'm like this entire facility has one barbell. If you got rid of one cardio machine, you'd have two barbells, like you know, like you guys prioritize those things, and then what's the point of paying a membership really?
Speaker 3:right man yeah, which is why like I don't mean to be a deborah downer, because sometimes I feel like when I talk about the fitness community, it can be like oh well, there's this issue and this issue everything is bad, it's all just cut, cut it loose, but then like as somebody who's like in fitness.
Speaker 3:I'm like could it not just be like a little bit better? Could we just like address some of these things, please, like can we get dumbbells? That would be nice, because I've been in some gyms women's only gyms that had like two stairmasters, an elliptical, the machines with pins that don't have weights on them and two kettlebells, and that was the entirety of their women's area and you're like what in the hell am I supposed to do with this?
Speaker 2:and the kettlebells were like 10 pounds yeah, right, right right yeah, so it's and like that's a comment I get is you should.
Speaker 3:If you're unhappy with men's gyms, you should just go to a women's only gym, and I'm like I would.
Speaker 2:But right, and then you just have to make your own gym and you're you have a fucking home gym but like, uh, it's a combination of trying to help women feel more comfortable but also going after the, the, the, the dicks, the gym, that you know that that cause a lot of the issues. So, yeah, I think it's, I think yes, well, basically to sum up, make fun, bully the bullies, make fun of the, the mics, right, like fucking, ostracize them as much as possible. Try and reach the younger generation and teach the younger males that like, hey, it's fine, you can, you can show emotions. In fact, probably should, you, probably should to your friends to the females males, it's fine, we're humans, all right.
Speaker 2:If you bottle that shit up, it's, it'll fucking kill you. And then also, at the same time, trying to reach women and say like, okay, we're not all assholes, yeah, some of us are, but like we're trying, we're doing what we can here and you know, let's, let's lend a small olive branch if possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I said this on Alex's podcast Crying doesn't make you weaker. It doesn't make you stronger, it just makes you human.
Speaker 2:Unless unless you're Mike, and then it makes you below a human. So then you have to, you have to throw punch someone instead.
Speaker 1:Not to not to be confused with little mike, mike pridgen, who, who does cry a lot damn mike fan. We love mike we love little mike, not big mike little mike everyone's getting the shout out in this podcast yeah well, is there anything else you wanted to rant about? I think that's it.
Speaker 3:I think I, I think I have reached my quota of bitching today I don't think I I've ever reached my quota, but I've come I work as hard as.
Speaker 2:I can. I can bitch as much, as I constantly can.
Speaker 1:You're going to get off the podcast, you're just going to.
Speaker 2:I need to bitch a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Well, where can people find you when they are ready for some more listening to you rant about all?
Speaker 3:these people. So every platform is just my first and last name sierra, audette, s-i-e-r-r-a. And tiktok is more the rants. Instagram is more the fitness that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's kind of like true of just both of those platforms. Yeah, yeah, yeah it really is that's, yeah, yeah.
